the problem of overcrowded waters

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Steve
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Steve » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:15 am

Erik, actually you hit the nail on the head with the double agent comment - one of our recently more controversial members has a penchant for signing up using different usernames... it's likely this is more from the same person



Erik Moller
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Erik Moller » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:45 am

Steve, how sad and unworthy, if true....
Let me guess.. No I won't, better to leave it.
I did wonder, though. Almost too stupid to be genuine.

I hope the discussion can continue on a sober basis.
I don't have the solution to the issue which is quite complex. A more restricted chopper access and use of huts law might be a good start.
I do think some of the more radical ideas put forward are loose/loose.
Although the financial contribution to NZ economy by visiting anglers might be "bugger all" compared to the total tourist revenue, many anglers spend their money in areas where few typical tourists stay.
Also, I beleive the more people that use and care about the resourses, the more political interest they will get. Of course, that's a matter of the right balance.



pomscott
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by pomscott » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:59 am

What I posted a few days ago:
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"Is Matt173 really a genuine visiting angler to New Zealand? Come on guys, do you not recognise the attitude and language of a previous poster? I am a visiting angler and hope, advancing years permitting, to get back and enjoy the company of Kiwi fly-fishers for a few years yet. Matt173 does not represent me in any way, not that he intends to do so, only to stir resentment as part of whatever his agenda is".
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I love the few weeks of each year that I spend in NZ visiting family, friends, and wetting a line in the company of long standing Kiwi angler friends.
Hopefully many will see Matt173, whoever he may be in reality, as just a provocateur with an unpleasant agenda.
Of course there are always issues that need to be addressed everywhere, those such as Matt173 are never part of solutions.
No doubt retribution to this comment will follow. I may respond.....but probably won't bother.



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Sol
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Sol » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:20 pm

Frankly, I feel this discussion is getting out of control. This is not what Forums are for, and getting personal in an argument has never won any points in a legitimate debate. I think you said more than enough, Matt...

I am an Aussie bastard (that’s an Aust - NZ thing that only Anzacs understand - to quote Johnno), but I also fished NZ for over 20 years and have a place in the SI for over 13 years hoping to retire there one day. I can fully sympathise with both sides of the argument until it gets to a ridiculous level.

To quote Johnno once again: You do not have book most back country huts. They are first in - first serve. Only a very few are reservation based, mainly on the great walks. The max time you can stay in a bc Hut is 3 days There are a lot of foreign anglers who have abused this and have stayed in certain huts on certain rivers for days and days and days. They know it’s not policed ( far too expensive for DoC to chopper in and check) - I said previously that the way to police it is through (1) guides, and (2) commercial helicopter services. Times of drop off and pick up by the chopper should be logged by any helicopter service flying to the backcountry. And yes, make it a $500 licence per person to go in by chopper - that will resolve the problem, but oh boy, the guides will start squealing.



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fraser hocks
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:32 am

Yea the whole chopper thing is another discussion again. Unfortunately from what i understand it CAA are about the only ones that can control where / when choppers can land. Iv got a mate that' s dad is high up in the air traffic control industry (and a keen fisher), so I might see if he can advise if there is a way to regulate it via CAA?


Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

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Sol
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Sol » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:00 pm

Fraser, surely DoC is a powerful enough body to demand entry and exit logs for helicopter groups flying into the backcountry huts? Even if they just got with the CAA on this it might stop the unscrupulous and lengthy stay by some parties.



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fraser hocks
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:44 pm

Quite likely Sol, but DOC probably see the amount of people that chopper in is small by comparison to the numbers that they manage in other locations, so not a big concern for them. Also not all areas are under DOC control. It needs F&G be able to persuade CAA to regulate.


Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

Dave
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Dave » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:21 pm

Guys, DoC can control numbers of landings on the DoC estate. To land you have to have a concession and that will specify where and how many times you can land. However I don't know how honest the helicopter operators are. I was at a meeting about a concession to land at Mavora a few years ago. DoC said at the meeting two other operators had concessions to land at Mavora but there had only been one landing. Must have been a coincidence that I was there when that occurred.
Keep an eye out for information from Fish & Game regarding some developments on overcrowding in the future. However, remember that F&G have to get any regulations approved by the Minister of Conservation and efforts for a Guide's Licence have not made much progress.
Note to Matt. There is a problem in some areas but not in others. Over 30 guides operating in Northern Southland creates quite an issue along with all the unguided overseas anglers. I have had days when I couldn't find any unoccupied sections on the Upper Oreti River and then when I started fishing on another river discovered others ahead of me even when there was no car at the access. I wasn't very happy abut that.

Dave



canuck
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by canuck » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:17 am

It would seem like guide licencing would be a critical aspect of this, at least it would reduce the number of people working in NZ who aren't eligible. It would allow rangers to confirm that the person was allowed to work in NZ and was a legal guide. I don't think that would change much for overseas visitors that just come to fish guided or unguided. It would eliminate the dude from overseas who shows up guides and contributes nothing to the economy or to the fishery.

The heli thing seems like a reasonable idea but it would reduce the chance that a local group could afford to make their once in a lifetime trip, while once again the wealthy resident or visitor won't be impacted as they have the cash to drop. Possibly a tariff on non - resident anglers for a landing fee. This would impact the non-resident but probably only the wealthy end while still allowing the allow the locals to still access their fishery and budget fisher to still have a NZ fishing experience.

As always I am concerned that just bumping costs over the whole range(ie licence fees) will only impact the working class person(guess where I fit) while the wealthy angler is the only one that can afford to access to the fishery and the experience.

Canuck



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Steve
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Steve » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:46 am

The other advantage of the guide licence is that it allows controls on the numbers of resident guides too. I'm not up to date on the latest edition of that, but recall the guides association was in favour of that as they also acknowledged the limited resource, and unfettled growth was not in the interests of the established guides either. Hot spots could be targeted, there's one lodge I've heard runs up to 11 guides - imagine the pressure those sorts of numbers cause on their local rivers.



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