the problem of overcrowded waters

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by TIDDLER » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:15 pm



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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Sol » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:25 pm

Thanks Moore. I can't let go of this topic without expressing a couple more of my "two-bob's worth" of ideas:

First, in my 20+ years of fishing in NZ (I very rarely venture into the bush - and then by tramping), I have only experienced four occasions of being "jumped" on the water. Once on the Temuka, once on the Bowyers, and twice on the Opihi. Each time, it wasn't your overseas angler or guide, but your fit, young, generous-of-spirit kiwi who thought nothing of passing and fishing upstream of you. I guess some people will never be taught the etiquette of angling and there is nothing anybody can do about it. I was always able to find water to myself and I believe that with good manners and proper fishing etiquette there are more than enough spots for everybody anytime on this vast lowland resource.

Second, the ridiculous proposals by KiwiAnglersFirst party have obviously not been thought out properly. What fisherman would come to NZ knowing that he has to stay in the pub from Friday to Sunday? The economy is not that flash that you can impose a drastic reduction in tourism not to mention the name that this would create for the "lucky country". F&G and other government and angling bodies would serve better by trying to fix the environment that attracts so many people. Dairy farming, pollution, irrigation, Didymo, stream disturbance by re-channeling of Deep Stream and Bowyers Creek have already resulted in damage that no number of overseas anglers could produce in a lifetime. Let's concentrate on the priorities first.

Last, the backcountry. I can see that as a real problem with privileged access by the wealthy. Maybe the huts can be controlled by a reservation system? Maybe ALL heli fishing should be banned - if you want to get there, go tramp like the rest and first come best served. Maybe there should be a $500/day per angler levy on backcountry access by helicopter - something that can be easily policed? That will give the sacred waters a good rest, but I feel that the first to squeal will be the local guides and not the visitors.

All in all, this debate requires serious thinking rather than shooting from the hip.


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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by SuperJack.10 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:28 pm

Ah, the internet :lol:

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by canuck » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:42 pm

A few years back when they had a time that you could respond with your thought on NZ fishing licence costs I sent in a response suggesting a modest increase for non residents. They had options for licences costing in the range of 4 to 500 dollars. This type of licence fee increase would have favoured the wealthy angler. I am confident that for some a 500 hundred dollar licence wouldn't have been a impediment, when you can spend 7000 dollars on a week of fishing a extra 500 probably doesn't matter. For the rest of us that is a significant hurdle; if you are looking for all your overseas anglers to be from a higher income bracket this solution would probably work, you would likely reduce or eliminate the less affluent fisher. I come from the less affluent end of the scale but am fortunate enough to be married to a Kiwi so I get budge accommodation :)

So not saying that BC's system is great but it definitely favour the locals, this comes with significant impacts to non residents of British Columbia and to non residents of Canada.

So lets say that Fraser is coming to join me for some cutthroat fishing in Southeast BC and then we are going to catch a day of steel heading in the Northwest. My licence is simple $36.00 plus a $15.00 Classified waters licence, so $51.00 dollars and I will need a steelhead tag for our steelhead experience so another $25. All up I am into 76 bucks, a pretty good deal.

Now for Fraser; $80 for his annual licence, pretty cheap really but… he needs a classified waters licence, Most of the decent waters are Classified. What isn't well indicated is that the CW licence is water and date specific. Fraser and I are going to do a 3 day float and then fish 2 of my favourite rivers( Fraser doesn't name rivers so we are Golden) and our last day will be on the well known and busy Elk River.

Fraser gets the 3 day class 2 for our float, no worries we know what days we are gone so 60 bucks. Fraser can't fish the tributaries as we weren't sure what days we would hit them so we didn't buy the classified waters licence for the tributaries as it is date and water specific. So all good for the 3 day float. After the float we are off to Favourite river 1. In the morning Fraser grabs a classified waters for the day, when we arrive it is blown out from a thunderstorm upstream, no worries we have plan B. Fraser needs to get a classified water licence for that as his was date and water specific, unfortunately it is sold out, some of the rivers have a limit on them. So we are off to plan C a lake or non classified water.

Off to Favourite river 2 no worries another CW licence and we have a great day.

Day 3 on the Elk we again aim for a early purchase of a CW licence but don't get in before they are sold out, so we can opt to hire a guide or try and go to another river.

So we head off on our drive North to do our Steelhead stuff on the way up we don't fish as Fraser doesn't have a classified waters licence. We have to remember not to arrive on a weekend as Fraser won't be able to fish because it is closed to non residents on weekends, we do have the option to hire a guide to cover off the weekend( I think that still works).

Anyway you get the idea that I can complicate things for the non resident angler and make it somewhat costly. For me as a resident it is no worries as I can move around and do what I need to.

As for Guides I am not an expert on this but this is how I think it works here. I agree guides in NZ should be licenced and eligible to work in NZ!

Guides are required to purchase rod days for the rivers that they want to fish. They need to purchase them prior to the start of the season- one rod day = one guided angler day. If you run out of days for that river you are done, if you have rod days left for that river they are yours and you still pay. Not all rivers are open to guiding so they don't have a carte blanche to go where ever when ever, so that keeps a lot of ground open to other fishers. The head guide and assistant guides all have to be licenced. There is a bit in the regs that basically says if it looks likes guiding it is guiding, I can't remember the exact wording but it leaves it pretty open for the enforcement officer to penalize with.

Thought that I would through this out for thought. For a resident it is pretty decent, for a non resident of BC it is a pain in the ass.


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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by the_skunk_whisperer » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:12 pm

Canuck, I skimmed through most of that so forgive me if you mentioned it already... interested to know who set that system in place there? From what I have observed in life it is those who have the most $$$ at stake that set the rules, hence it is pretty rare for some "feel good" legislation to ever get passed. Local example, Ecan.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by canuck » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:54 am

This was put in place by a government ministry; Ministry of Environment. The objective for the classified waters stuff in the area I live was to reduce fishing pressure so that some species would be able to survive and thrive. It wasn't specifically targeted to improve "local" angler fishing although this was considered.

The limits on the number of licences on a specific river isn't published or even readily available. I use to sit next to a ministries fisheries tech and he didn't know the actual numbers on some rivers, he knew that the cap existed.


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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Sol » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:23 pm

Canuck, in my opinion "classifying waters" is "the beginning of the end".

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Andy W » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:24 am

Do a degree, NZ is already going down the Classified Water path with the Back Country Endorsement - free at the moment granted. And most of the users of the Back Country License (and you would dispute that some waters are Back Country) are overseas anglers. I don't begrudge them doing so - if you are coming here to fish then you need to get your license tags sorted, but Kiwi Anglers should be fishing these gems too. For many the trip is too far to justify, especially with the beat system in say the Upper Greenstone.

Canuck - your piece puts it in perspective of what costs are like in North America for both resident and non resident. I can see a day when our license system goes down the same path in NZ, but I don't think I will be around to see it - change of that nature has shown to be very slow in NZ as successive Ministers have their blinkers firmly in place, and F&G (despite showing they want change) seem to lack the opportunity to leverage such change.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:43 am

Wowww sure gets complicated for the non-resident in Canada hey Canuck? And to think of the number of complaints from some over the $30 extra for a non-resident licence? Talk about not realizing how good they have it!!

Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:19 am

Having read the first few pages of this thread I felt the need to express my side as foreign fisherman. I have come to NZ for the 4th time and each time fly fished on a DIY basis with self contained camper. I visisted the North and the South Island each 1 month at a time. I find the initial video that was posted completely misleading. "millions of YouTube video viewers"? Really? A casual glance at some of the nzd fly fishing videos reveals at max a few thousand views (5 - 10 videos had more than 200k views) . The article seems very dramatic at multiple places. Suggesting that millions of views, which is clearly overstated, would lead to a swarm of foreign fishermen is ridiculous. Around 7000 fresh water fishing licenses were issued to foreign anglers the year before. Multiply that by around 7 days (avg stay) and divide that by around 4x30 (4 months of fishing season where most foreigners visit and 30 days) and you get to around 410 people per day all over North and South NZ. That is nothing at all. Forming a group to raise awareness of too many foreign fisherman seems absolutely ridiculous in light of those numbers.

I fished each time In November (I like early season and hence can't speak for the peak season) and I have not ever run into a single non Kiwi and perhaps into 5-6 New Zealanders on the water. Again that is early season...

Next, I like to raise the question what is it that the majority wants? The money from tourism or not? Clearly a much larger majority will vote with their purses rather than emotions on this issue because tourism benefits many different industries and people at all different economic levels. Air lines and all employees working in that sector, property markets, car rentals, food/entertainment industries, the fisheries themselves who are greatly funded by license sales, gasoline refineries, the tax man, and many others. Against that you have some angry individuals who seem to be extrapolating their anger from a foreigner that may have moved in on their home turf for a few minutes of face to face contact to all foreign anglers being locusts and invaders, rude and lacking etiquette.

Next, the pot calling the kettle black... With all due respect but my experience with the few local anglers was a lot less pleasant than any experience I ever had in Europe, Canada or the US. Twice did I politely approach a local fly fisherman to inquire about his plans as he was there when I approached the water. I offered to drive more than 25 km further upstream but he insisted he would be covering the next 40 km. I mean I am all in for etiquette but where are the limits of "jumping ahead". To most anglers world wide that means to jump ahead to the next few pools or settling within 10km maximum. 40km? I parked my car 25 km further upstream and worked my way up the river. Never have I seen said fisherman again. The rivers are for everyone with valid license and so far there does not seem to be a law that any fisherman owns a birthright to occupy the entire length of the river. I think I generally possess a pretty streight forward sense of reason. What that guy was asking for was utterly unreasonable. On the other hand I had tons of very positive and pleasant experiences with land owners. Not once have I been refused permission to cross their land to access water.

I truly believe the waters can be shared without having to start a war between locals and non locals. I have met people of many cultures that are highly ethical and reasonable and friendly and respectful and I have seen idiots among most every culture as well. I am sure some locals have horror stories of interactions with non locals to share, so do foreigners also have their fair share of stories of weirdos and assholes they may have bumped into in NZ. There were many supermarket parking lots where junkies hung around and all sorts of shady people, day and night and even along rivers there were local people I felt highly uncomfortable to leave my camper behind. Good stories and bad stories.

It appears to me that some individuals are trying to make an issue where there hardly is no issue. When you have a million immigrants and asylum seekers in a year such as in Germany you can speak of issues. When you have 7000 foreign fishermen who descend on the entire North and South Island in a year then I would call this blowing up a mosquito (or sand fly) up to an elephant.

Last edited by Matt173 on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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