the problem of overcrowded waters

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fraser hocks
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:46 am

There is quite obviously an issue with overcrowding. This thread was set up to discuss it. You try to suggest that its a problem that does't exist, when quite frankly those of us that live here know it is an issue. I'm confident that you are only trying to say that there isn't a problem to get people to arc up. That is the definition of a troll.

Off you go. Im sure your going to respond with something to try to get a response! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by pomscott » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:45 am

Is Matt173 really a genuine visiting angler to New Zealand? Come on guys, do you not recognise the attitude and language of a previous poster? I am a visiting angler and hope, advancing years permitting, to get back and enjoy the company of Kiwi fly-fishers for a few years yet. Matt173 does not represent me in any way, not that he intends to do so, only to stir resentment as part of whatever his agenda is.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by mjl » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:24 pm

This thread doesn’t prove there is an issue. There may well be but I would like to see some figures. Total licence sales over time would be fine. If tourists don’t come it is ultimately Kiwi businesses in small towns that rely on the income that will suffer. For their sake, I think the evidence for major restrictions has to be be tight. Steve made the same point in the second post on this very thread.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:37 pm

During high season on the Tongariro plenty anglers do stand 2m apart at multiple spots. Same during salmon runs at many river mouths. But that is aside the point, point was that there are hardly any foreign fishermen amongst them unless they are friends and invited to the party.

So, what is really the problem that a bunch of you are having? Because it can't be the number of foreign anglers. As calculated in detail at any given point in time there are around 410 foreign fishers spread across all NZ. Some wild crazy claims of a bunch of 50 foreign anglers at one place is either a once in a decade occurrence or a blatant lie. And any hut can be turned easily into reservation only. Problem solved. And reservations given to guides (most of them guide foreigners) for huts can also easily be regulated.

You don't like over regulation and prefer to see self constraint and good manners by individuals? Well we all do. But either your culture is so superior in attitude and behavior in which case you should choose to ban all foreigners or you make a choice to accept the occasional bad apple and attempt to educate anglers coming from abroad hoping to minimize the impact of bad apples.

But I tell you what is not gonna happen. People are not stupid. They won't fly thousands of miles, drop more than 10k each time, just to be treated as garbage and ending up with a few days on water fishing and being relegated to the pub all weekend. And one other thing is a given: a few angry local fishermen are not the only interested parties in this equation. Your GDP also has a say in this and all affected businesses. I think what angers me and perhaps a few others is the impression that a few locals want it all, the waters to yourselves and foreign dummies who pay your hopelessly inflated prices everywhere in exchange for fishing perhaps a few rivers that some locals in their grace leave as leftover.

Here my proposal: regulate what the real problem is. If it's back country fishing then require reservations to book accommodation and water specific permits. If it's helicopters then have them banned. If it's people staying too long at campgrounds then limit the stay. But whatever is being done, apply it to everyone equally. We can go back and forth for pages and throw mud at each other abd present our anecdotal evidence and campfire stories. There are disrespectful local anglers and foreign anglers. Regulate what the actual problem is. It's not foreign fishermen but apparently an overcrowding at back country waters. If some are angry that guides are flying in daily with clients then it's not the damn problem of the client but to allow the guides to run this business at the expense of all other local fishermen. Foreign anglers are not flooding NZ, unless they are fishing illegally without license. The numbers clearly contradict any such claim. And as mjl said, unless there are additional numbers on the table all else are stories stories and more stories on which decisions, that affect tons of small businesses in small towns and their families, should not be based on.

Andy W wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:09 am
Matt173 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:20 am
95% of the overcrowding is by local anglers. Where are most of the fishermen from who stand side by side often less than 2 meters apart at the Tongariro each season and at most river mouths (just to start with)? It's local fishermen.
So, you have finished the Tongariro extensively then? Standing 2m apart and fishing a bomb with any sort of breeze isn’t practical. Standing 2m off your mate’s shoulder to net his fish is though… Be careful of making assumptions based on a casual glance.

And if "local fisherman" want to stand 2m apart at a Taupo/ Rotorua river mouth to fish the rip, then let them. What you see in that situation is the equivalent of a bunch of guys going to the pub for a jug and game of darts. That’s their form of socialising - out gathering food for their whanau. But don’t confuse that with the very real problem alluded to in this forum, that of foreign anglers occupying sections of rivers for extensive periods - mostly targeting trophy trout.

For the record – the only time I have ever seen fisherman develop lead feet on the Tongariro was a bunch of anglers who spoke in a very foreign tongue, and they decided to stay put one morning on the one seam available in the Blue Pool. Still didn’t mean they caught fish. In that situation the smart Kiwi angler fishes the ripply water below them (rotating through the run with his mate 20m behind) catching fish, before the rainbows get up to the flat seam for a rest up.

Personally speaking – if anyone gets closer to me than 2 rod lengths at a river mouth (salmon fishing in the Waimak or Rakaia excepted), they deserve whatever the wind delivers to their ear/ cheek/ nose/ hand.
Last edited by Matt173 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:43 pm

Double post removed

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Dave » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:40 pm

This may spoil some peoples arguments but here are some facts from Fish & Game. These are South Island licence sales for this season.
Total licence sales for this season 76800. Of these 32.4 % were day licence sales and we don't know if these are resident or non-resident. A non-resident fishing less than 8 days will buy day licences to cover his days unless he wishes to fish one of the rivers requiring a back country licence. Non-resident licences were 10.7% of total full season licence sales (5160 licences). Up in Johnno's area the non-resident licence sales are 25% of total full season licence sales.
Interesting the only licences I checked on a river requiring a back country licence this season were overseas anglers but neither actually had a back country licence and they hadn't worried the fish at all.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by mjl » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:36 pm

The claim is that there has been a massive increase in pressure. One years data doesn’t help.

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Johnno » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:22 pm

Well all I can say is what I have seen.

I have seen waters in various areas if the South Island get more and more crowded.
I’ve seen the Hut system abused.
From what I have seen and experienced it’s mainly foreign anglers.
It’s an issue
Don’t like that?
But that’s the way I’ve seen it.
Local or resident licence sales have dropped and young anglers joining the pastime have dropped in some areas.
Funny that.

Many of our waters have low trout numbers with the exception of a few well known areas ( and some less well known which I for one would never name) and to start spouting the Taupo waters as examples is a little unfair given the nature of that particular fishery. That’s cherry picking at its worst

What I know and witness season after season getting worse, is anglers after anglers - mainly foreign - fishing certain waters day after day after day all season with those waters getting no rest. That’s not helping the fishery and does not help the angler experience. I know this, I see this and whether Matt, Joe Bloggs or some Aussie bastard from Melbourne ( that’s an Aust - NZ thing that only Anzacs understand ;) ) likes it or not, that’s now how a lot of NZ fishing is.
And it’s creeping. I’ve seen the steady increase in recent years on my local waters. I fish them up to 70 days a year at least and have done so for God knows how long. I regard myself as a pretty bloody good angler, and I like to think I’m in the top 5%. In other words I like to think I know what I’m doing and I think I know what I’m talking about.

If you don’t agree then fine let’s agree to differ and leave it at that. Cause you ain’t going to change my view.

I’m not anti foreign angler. I’m just telling it like I and many others see it.

Funnily enough there is a bit of of a general push back regarding tourist numbers in NZ and the number pouring into the back country. For example, Booking out great walks all summer, and locals don’t get a look in.... Some view it as tourists “ taking over”. Whether it is or not I don’t know but the sentiment apparently isn’t restricted to fishing. And like it or not foreign anglers are but a tiny tiny portion of tourists coming here, the amount of money they spend in the big scheme of things is bugger all. If every foreign angler immediately ceased to come here ( now there’s a thing....). I doubt the Tourist dollar intake would even hiccup.

I have no idea what the solution is. There is this hyper vibe for BIG FISH. For lots of BIG FISH. That’s the current trend - get BIG FISH. If you doubt that look at every cover of Flyfisherman Magazine for the past 5 years. Yup there’s BIG FISH on the cover. Every edition. Add NZs reputation for BIG FISH and the apparent clean green image that’s oversold, over marketed and hyped to ridiculous mythical heights on mainstream and social media and there is but one reason why there is this wave of foreign anglers here. And yes go onto UTube and FB and Instagram and probably Tinder, there are Kiwis boasting about their BIG FISH. So some of us locals don’t help ourselves. And yes some are guides promoting their thing. I regard the worst of them as huckstering pimps prostituting a public resource for their own business. But that’s another thread

What I really would like is that in 10 years time when I retire, I have some decent fishing left for me in my older age. I don’t see that right now. Tasmania is looking pretty bloody good..... that’s a shame as a Kiwi to say that but it’s true.

In 1993 I was laughed at when I very publicly said that in 20 years the Salmon fishery on the South Island east coast was vulnerable and in danger of collapse... no one took notice and poo - pooed the whole idea of it. Well I was wrong. It took 25 years.......

Who is going to laugh at me when I say that by 2038 ( if not by 2030 - hell in some places it already isn’t) the South Island of NZ will cease to be a viable fishing destination..... and the North zisland not far behind.

20 years pples.

That’s why this discussion, in association with the other pressure issues confronting our fisheries needs to be had.

I applaud all comments, the good, the bad, the mad, the ignorant and the ugly.

It shows passion, and maybe, just maybe there’s a flickering candle of hope, a wee light way————————————> down there.....

If that goes out we’re f**ked...

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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by canuck » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:06 am

Johno I think I would like to spend a day or more fishing with you! We would have some great chats.


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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:07 am

Johnno, you would hopefully agree that decision makers would better rely on hard numbers and statistics rather than hearsay, correct? Or how would you like it if a bunch of foreign fishermen ganged up and threatened F&G that they would not return if some rivers were not exclusively reserved for them because they claim that too many locals make it impossible to fish undisturbed? You would certainly say "perfect, then stay away". But I can guarantee you that decision makers would highly weigh economics and base their decision not only on a few locals who have "opinions" to share or have "seen things" without the slightest factual backup. I have not ever seen a single photo or other proof of your and others' claims that waters are overcrowded by foreign anglers. Why is that?

By the way around Tekapo there are some awesome locations with plenty fish. I fished the upper Tekapo river parallel to the canal last year a day after opening and the fish numbers were incredible. Not massive in size but plenty browns and also rainbows. Another very promising location is the lower reaches of the Godley River closest to the highway which produced some large sized brown trouts early in the season. Strong winds made it a challenge but I caught three browns there alone. Then Hurunui river on the north branch upstream from where the North and South branches merge. This is where I caught my largest brown last year despite lots of rain towards the opening of the season. Not a single angler disturbed me nor did I disturb anyone else. I can continue the list down another 20 rivers. There are incredible number of fisheries with plenty fish that may be a bit harder to reach (such as Hurunui just below lake Sumner) but I can list plenty examples that contradict that most fisheries are overcrowded. Yet all the anecdotal evidence in the world does not further this discussion without numbers and facts.

Trout images on Tinder? Lol, perhaps some local humping a trout into its behind? Very entertaining I bet, especially for Fraser Hocks who has shown he somehow gets very excited when he talks about penis enlargements and all those sorts of things. Are you seriously believing you are not bending the truth here by quite a bit?
Last edited by Matt173 on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

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