the problem of overcrowded waters

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Johnno
Posts: 594
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Johnno » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:50 pm

As a local who has fished my own country for near 50 years I know a wee bit about the fishing here and what drives it and what destroys it. I know what it was and sadly what it has become or at least becoming
We have a unique fishery and a unique trout population dynamic. Of course angling pressure is only one problem, but it IS a problem... in some places. And it’s creeping. I know this. I see this and it needs to be talked about. I don’t know the solution but it needs to be discussed. Dairy farming, water extraction, pollution, forestry and other problems also affect the waters, depending on where, to a greater or lesser degree than angling pressure.
You are not the problem, but a tiny tiny part of the problem. As am I
If you don’t like what you read here or experience in NZ then the simple solution is to go somewhere else!



Johnno
Posts: 594
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:01 pm

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Johnno » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:03 pm

You need to practice what you preach..

Could not agree more. Just wanted to add, most Doc huts already have a reservation system, so do most camp grounds which limits the number of days one can stay. An earlier poster claimed there were foreigners who stayed for long periods of times in those huts. First of all that is impossible as most all such huts operate on a reservation system that limits the number of days one can stay and secondly before one walks or tramps into the backcountry wanting to stay in huts one should always inquire about availability and place a reservation. A lot of claims posted in this thread so far are exaggerated or outright false.

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

You do not have book most back country huts. They are first in - first serve. Only a very few are reservation based, mainly on the great walks. The max time you can stay in a bc Hut is 3 days There are a lot of foreign anglers who have abused this and have stayed in certain huts on certain rivers for days and days and days. They know it’s not policed ( far too expensive for DoC to chopper in and check). I’ve complained time and again but nothing is done. I know all this because I have seen it, experienced it and will continue to do so. It’s got worse. I’ve pulled up to car parks at the entrance to tracks giving access to wilderness waters and found several camper vans and cars, all foreigners. They camp there for several days to fish that water and that’s almost all summer long. Those waters, nearly empty 15 years ago are now chokka with anglers every day, day after day for most of the season. If you don’t get there early season, it’s not worth going.

So Matt, as I said. If you don’t like it go somewhere else. I won’t be complaining ..



Johnno
Posts: 594
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Johnno » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:03 pm

double up post removed



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fraser hocks
Posts: 664
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Location: Queenstown

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:30 pm

Don't worry Johnno. He is just a troll. So many false claim's it's ridiculous (such as most DOC huts require bookings. I doubt he has ever been to NZ). Just ignore his trolling comments bro. Not worth the typing effort!

PS. The guy claim's to live in Hong Kong. I'm surprised we haven't had penis enlargement drugs pushed on us yet :lol: :lol:


Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:13 am

95% of the overcrowding is by local anglers. Where are most of the fishermen from who stand side by side often less than 2 meters apart at the Tongariro each season and at most river mouths (just to start with)? It's local fishermen. I would love to see stats on doc hut bookings, I reckon its again 9/10 locals. No problem with that whatsoever, NZ to Kiwis of course. But suggesting the overcrowding comes from the 400 fishermen from abroad at any given day is at best naive and misleading.
Johnno wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:50 pm
As a local who has fished my own country for near 50 years I know a wee bit about the fishing here and what drives it and what destroys it. I know what it was and sadly what it has become or at least becoming
We have a unique fishery and a unique trout population dynamic. Of course angling pressure is only one problem, but it IS a problem... in some places. And it’s creeping. I know this. I see this and it needs to be talked about. I don’t know the solution but it needs to be discussed. Dairy farming, water extraction, pollution, forestry and other problems also affect the waters, depending on where, to a greater or lesser degree than angling pressure.
You are not the problem, but a tiny tiny part of the problem. As am I
If you don’t like what you read here or experience in NZ then the simple solution is to go somewhere else!



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:20 am

95% of the overcrowding is by local anglers. Where are most of the fishermen from who stand side by side often less than 2 meters apart at the Tongariro each season and at most river mouths (just to start with)? It's local fishermen. I would love to see stats on doc hut bookings, I reckon its again 9/10 locals. No problem with that whatsoever, NZ to Kiwis of course. But suggesting the overcrowding comes from the 400 fishermen from abroad at any given day is at best naive and misleading.

If you take issues with heli fishing then that's something where I reckon foreigners have a greater play in and imho should be completely abolished. And NR license fees are comparatively inexpensive, it should be higher.

To have a valuable discussion we should talk about hard statistics how many foreign fishermen crowd specific rivers to make it an issue. I have not come across such numbers and neither had anyone else it appears. If that is for lack of book keeping then this is a problem of the local F&G. I can confidently say that nowhere else in the world are fishermen so secretive about techniques and locations as in NZ. There is no literature out there, whether in book form, social media or elsewhere that would point foreign fishers to specific locations. Other than random anecdotal evidence there is so far nothing that points to overcrowding by non local fishers. And I guess that is a big reason decision makers will do nothing about it and that is good. I close my case unless numbers are presented that can be reckoned with.
Johnno wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:50 pm
As a local who has fished my own country for near 50 years I know a wee bit about the fishing here and what drives it and what destroys it. I know what it was and sadly what it has become or at least becoming
We have a unique fishery and a unique trout population dynamic. Of course angling pressure is only one problem, but it IS a problem... in some places. And it’s creeping. I know this. I see this and it needs to be talked about. I don’t know the solution but it needs to be discussed. Dairy farming, water extraction, pollution, forestry and other problems also affect the waters, depending on where, to a greater or lesser degree than angling pressure.
You are not the problem, but a tiny tiny part of the problem. As am I
If you don’t like what you read here or experience in NZ then the simple solution is to go somewhere else!



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:28 am

Really and how would you know unless you walked in and specifically inquired about how long someone stayed? And that happened to you more than a dozen times over the past, let's say, 5 years? And if that happened why not insisting for those trampers to leave as they already stayed more than 3 days? Not ideal but a simple solution with the opportunity to educate a few inconsiderate foreigners. So, it happened many many times? Any evidence? Did you take photos of the violators? Audio recordings of the conversations? Anything? I would love to hear it, and I have no issue to shame transgressors because they hurt my reputation more than they hurt you. If you want others to join your fight against transgression then some stories and anecdotal evidence is unfortunately not enough. Anecdotal evidence is what made an entire society enforce Jews to wear a David's star less than a century ago. And we all know how that ended.

Listen, I am not saying your story is bogus but I am trying to make the point that the few negative experiences you or others may have had seem to be greatly amplified by your anger about changes to your waters that are explained by mostly other factors.

booking.doc.govt.nz
Funny, I see over 40 listed right here, plus the great walk huts. But you are right, I stand corrected, more huts than not are first come first served. I can admit to be wrong when being pointed to it. Apologies re my statement that most huts can be reserved. Though it does not change any of the points I made.

Lastly, I like it in NZ, hence my coming back each year and dropping a good amount of money . I meticulously clean up behind me but I do reserve the right to park my camper at places close to fishing water where it is permitted. What's the difference between my camper and your car? At most places where campers are allowed to freedom camp there are maximum stays enforced. If local townships choose not to police their own regulations then you should perhaps blame them as well.
Johnno wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:03 pm
You need to practice what you preach..

Could not agree more. Just wanted to add, most Doc huts already have a reservation system, so do most camp grounds which limits the number of days one can stay. An earlier poster claimed there were foreigners who stayed for long periods of times in those huts. First of all that is impossible as most all such huts operate on a reservation system that limits the number of days one can stay and secondly before one walks or tramps into the backcountry wanting to stay in huts one should always inquire about availability and place a reservation. A lot of claims posted in this thread so far are exaggerated or outright false.

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

You do not have book most back country huts. They are first in - first serve. Only a very few are reservation based, mainly on the great walks. The max time you can stay in a bc Hut is 3 days There are a lot of foreign anglers who have abused this and have stayed in certain huts on certain rivers for days and days and days. They know it’s not policed ( far too expensive for DoC to chopper in and check). I’ve complained time and again but nothing is done. I know all this because I have seen it, experienced it and will continue to do so. It’s got worse. I’ve pulled up to car parks at the entrance to tracks giving access to wilderness waters and found several camper vans and cars, all foreigners. They camp there for several days to fish that water and that’s almost all summer long. Those waters, nearly empty 15 years ago are now chokka with anglers every day, day after day for most of the season. If you don’t get there early season, it’s not worth going.

So Matt, as I said. If you don’t like it go somewhere else. I won’t be complaining ..
Last edited by Matt173 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:54 am, edited 3 times in total.



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:42 am

Why do you make up lies and attack the person. You have now done so multiple times. I am just tired to hear locals moan about a few hundred foreign fishermen, most of whom conduct themselves impeccably and greatly support the local economy and preserve the environment. I also do not extrapolate from a few unruly kiwi tourists (of whom there is a fair share all over Asia) to an entire population or subsample of a population. You provided zero numbers, zero facts, not a single idea yet call others troll. It discounts any of your other statements.
fraser hocks wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:30 pm
Don't worry Johnno. He is just a troll. So many false claim's it's ridiculous (such as most DOC huts require bookings. I doubt he has ever been to NZ). Just ignore his trolling comments bro. Not worth the typing effort!

PS. The guy claim's to live in Hong Kong. I'm surprised we haven't had penis enlargement drugs pushed on us yet :lol: :lol:



Andy W
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:01 pm
Location: Christchurch AKA Quake City

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Andy W » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:09 am

Matt173 wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:20 am
95% of the overcrowding is by local anglers. Where are most of the fishermen from who stand side by side often less than 2 meters apart at the Tongariro each season and at most river mouths (just to start with)? It's local fishermen.
So, you have finished the Tongariro extensively then? Standing 2m apart and fishing a bomb with any sort of breeze isn’t practical. Standing 2m off your mate’s shoulder to net his fish is though… Be careful of making assumptions based on a casual glance.

And if "local fisherman" want to stand 2m apart at a Taupo/ Rotorua river mouth to fish the rip, then let them. What you see in that situation is the equivalent of a bunch of guys going to the pub for a jug and game of darts. That’s their form of socialising - out gathering food for their whanau. But don’t confuse that with the very real problem alluded to in this forum, that of foreign anglers occupying sections of rivers for extensive periods - mostly targeting trophy trout.

For the record – the only time I have ever seen fisherman develop lead feet on the Tongariro was a bunch of anglers who spoke in a very foreign tongue, and they decided to stay put one morning on the one seam available in the Blue Pool. Still didn’t mean they caught fish. In that situation the smart Kiwi angler fishes the ripply water below them (rotating through the run with his mate 20m behind) catching fish, before the rainbows get up to the flat seam for a rest up.

Personally speaking – if anyone gets closer to me than 2 rod lengths at a river mouth (salmon fishing in the Waimak or Rakaia excepted), they deserve whatever the wind delivers to their ear/ cheek/ nose/ hand.



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fraser hocks
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Location: Queenstown

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:11 am



Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

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