the problem of overcrowded waters

The place for all your fishing and travel queries
Post Reply
Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:29 am

Tiny island? Huge number of people from around the planet? How about some hard numbers. 7000 fishermen from abroad a year vs the thousands of streams and rivers and lakes (425,000 km in total). I think you are right now blowing things completely out of proportion. Perhaps you could find the true culprits that take your solitude away: building projects, dams, canals, further privatization of land, unruly motocross bikers, shady individuals that linger around the edges of most towns...you must be covering great many miles of water if you identify foreign fishermen as the main issue that disturb your solitude. Just saying, sticking to facts and figures serves all of us better than platitudes and anecdotal evidence.

Compliance an issue? Because Kiwis are so compliant and foreign fishermen would cheat on average? Are you perhaps xenophobic?
fraser hocks wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:41 am
Unfortunately we have such an amazing fishery that the draw of it, is killing it. If I had a dollar for every person that has asked me this year where they can get into remote back country fishing without seeing another angler, id be rich. And I tell them all that since there are so many chasing that, then it just doesn't exist any more.

Were a tiny island with an amazing array of waters to fish, but unfortunately the huge number of people from around the planet that want to experience it means that its loosing its shine because solitude on a river is getting harder and harder to find.

Im not sure of the exact answer to the issue (as no one is at the moment) but somehow we have to manage the fishery in order to maintain its uniqueness. The idea of residents only on the weekends is a good one. I know several country's that already have this in place. My only concern is that compliance could be a nightmare.



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:45 am

May I suggest that perhaps the issue of fishing guides should be included in this discussion ? Without guides and heli fishing anyone would have to make a true effort to get into remote backcountry regions. Also, since when has being pointed to fish and told which fly to fish, at which leader and for what distance been considered real fishing. If anything guides are greatly increasing hooked fish by clients, fish that will be spooked for days/weeks. Without the entire guiding industry things for everyone would be fairer and more balanced. It would naturally keep those people away who seem to have a problem with self initiative, adventure and self motivation....



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:04 am

Perhaps then you should start with the true problem. Dairy and irrigation. Organize and start fighting. I will donate happily when I see such effort. But breathing down the neck of a few thousand foreign anglers is truly not the problem that you make it out to be. Let's not fall pray for polemic and hearsay. Sometimes it seems to me that xenophobia is taking a solid hold in NZ. What about all the kiwis that swarm to Niseko/Japan each year and conduct themselves like a horde of primates. Or the guys who can't get enough of sex tourism in the Philippines or Hongkong.

Here is the problem: I made all the above up. There are no hordes of unruly kiwis abroad. Not because kiwis are so much more polite than the rest of the world but because assholes are generally a tiny minority and they always amplify the problem and attract attention and bad publicity. In the same way 4000 foreign anglers are not a problem at all, not even 7000. It is the tiny minority of every culture that behaves like shites. I am willing to make a bet you have seen at least 10x more local unethical or disrespectful fisherman that foreigners. Simply because you have come in contact with at least 10x as many local fisherman than foreign fisherman. But you remember and amplify the negative experience with foreign anglers because they are d-i-f-f-e-r-e-n-t.
Brown Trout Stalker wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:36 am
RussellfromOz wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:50 am
Now while I understand some of the frustrations apparent in the Stuff article I personally feel that my activities in NZ each year are not a threat to the trout fishery or NZ anglers.
Russell
Individually you are not a problem, but having 4000 plus of you is.
Each person who fishers here says that they aren't the problem or the issue, but when you add them up together, they become a problem.
You've got to understand that we aren't having a go at the lone angler, we are looking at from a "collective whole" and how much damage that "collective whole" is doing to our New Zealand fishery and the implications to us local anglers.



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:46 am

So many wrong statements. NR license fees are already higher than local ones. I don't mind paying more if those fees are put to good use to preserve fisheries. Then in Canada any nonresident angler can fish any day of week. Only during certain times of year and at some very limited number of rivers can only local anglers fish during weekends. Just saying the information you received is half accurate.
fraser hocks wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:34 pm
Good to hear Sol. Yea its very common in other countries to have such a system in place, and have for many years.

A friend recently fished in BC and discovered there that not only have you a lot higher fee to fish but as a non-resident you aren't allowed to fish on weekends. We are blessed here to have an amazing fishery that costs very little to fish.

Couldn't agree more about the hoping we don't become more like Australia, with ridiculous over regulation and groups such as Pauline Hanson's!



Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:52 am

Could not agree more. Just wanted to add, most Doc huts already have a reservation system, so do most camp grounds which limits the number of days one can stay. An earlier poster claimed there were foreigners who stayed for long periods of times in those huts. First of all that is impossible as most all such huts operate on a reservation system that limits the number of days one can stay and secondly before one walks or tramps into the backcountry wanting to stay in huts one should always inquire about availability and place a reservation. A lot of claims posted in this thread so far are exaggerated or outright false.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts from your vast experience as visiting angler to NZ.
Sol wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:25 pm
Thanks Moore. I can't let go of this topic without expressing a couple more of my "two-bob's worth" of ideas:

First, in my 20+ years of fishing in NZ (I very rarely venture into the bush - and then by tramping), I have only experienced four occasions of being "jumped" on the water. Once on the Temuka, once on the Bowyers, and twice on the Opihi. Each time, it wasn't your overseas angler or guide, but your fit, young, generous-of-spirit kiwi who thought nothing of passing and fishing upstream of you. I guess some people will never be taught the etiquette of angling and there is nothing anybody can do about it. I was always able to find water to myself and I believe that with good manners and proper fishing etiquette there are more than enough spots for everybody anytime on this vast lowland resource.

Second, the ridiculous proposals by KiwiAnglersFirst party have obviously not been thought out properly. What fisherman would come to NZ knowing that he has to stay in the pub from Friday to Sunday? The economy is not that flash that you can impose a drastic reduction in tourism not to mention the name that this would create for the "lucky country". F&G and other government and angling bodies would serve better by trying to fix the environment that attracts so many people. Dairy farming, pollution, irrigation, Didymo, stream disturbance by re-channeling of Deep Stream and Bowyers Creek have already resulted in damage that no number of overseas anglers could produce in a lifetime. Let's concentrate on the priorities first.

Last, the backcountry. I can see that as a real problem with privileged access by the wealthy. Maybe the huts can be controlled by a reservation system? Maybe ALL heli fishing should be banned - if you want to get there, go tramp like the rest and first come best served. Maybe there should be a $500/day per angler levy on backcountry access by helicopter - something that can be easily policed? That will give the sacred waters a good rest, but I feel that the first to squeal will be the local guides and not the visitors.

All in all, this debate requires serious thinking rather than shooting from the hip.

Sol.



User avatar
fraser hocks
Posts: 683
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:25 pm
Location: Queenstown

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:56 am

I think someone has been either self medicating??? :?


Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:20 pm

Did the facts make you drowsy? Before shaming foreign fishermen, perhaps as Sol and others pointed out we all should focus on the real issues rather than venting and directing our anger at a tiny negligible minority that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the real problem.
fraser hocks wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:56 am
I think someone has been either self medicating??? :?



canuck
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 1:26 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by canuck » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 pm

The fish under the bridge and the troll under the bridge :D

Canuck - another foreign angler



User avatar
fraser hocks
Posts: 683
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:25 pm
Location: Queenstown

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:20 pm

I concur Canuck ;)


Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

Matt173
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:43 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Matt173 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:28 pm

Let's focus on facts and critique the message rather than attacking the messenger or person.

Fact is at any given point during the main fishing season around 410 foreign licensed fly and spin anglers are fishing the vast waters all around New Zealand. If some identify this as the main culprit to the destruction of a local's fly fishing happiness then I don't know what else to say. The equivalent would be to criticize all New Zealanders because at any given time during the skiing season 300 or so Kiwis congregate at the few ski resorts in Japan or Europe. "they destroy the fun for the rest of us, how reprehensible" equates to screaming at a few hundred fisherman who each spend thousands of dollars on the local NZ economy and otherwise peacefully disappear onto rivers and streams. I would say it is the person's fault who only wants to fish the most popular rivers and then complains that there are other fishermen. When you go next time to fish the most popular rivers during high season perhaps count the percentage of foreign fisherman. You might be surprised at the statistics and facts. Being disgruntled is ok but directing anger at those who are clearly not the main cause of issues fly fishers face in NZ is ludicrous. Luckily such individuals are a tiny minority with little to no decision making power. I happily pay 500 dollars for my license, even 1000 dollars for my 30 days of fishing in NZ per year if that makes the few happy. But I also know it won't change a thing. In fact you make the problem worse. You will have only wealthy foreigners hire helis and guides who continue to "crowd" up backcountry waters. Those who go about themselves for budget reasons and statistically catch a lot less and cover less water will stay away. Not that there is a crowd anyway but some seem to see it that way.



Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests