the problem of overcrowded waters

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Brown Trout Stalker
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Brown Trout Stalker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:21 pm

For those of you who are linguistically talented but logistically and statically challenged let’s look at some fishing license data. :oops:

7000 of 138000 issued Fish n Game license are international anglers
Of 15 backcountry rivers, 7800 endorsements issued last season more than half to overseas anglers.
60 to 70 percent of the 180 fishing days available on the Greenstone, went to overseas anglers.

How does all this information stack up?

5% of license are international anglers.
95% local anglers

Over half of the backcountry endorsements went to international anglers.
Taking that at 60% then of the 7800 endorsements issued, 4680 went to overseas anglers.
Leaving 3120 issued to the 131000 of the local anglers.
Taking 65% (halfway between 60 & 70) of the 180 days went to international anglers on the Greenstone, which is 117 days.
Leaving only 63 days to the local anglers to fish.

So of the 7000 international anglers they took 4680 backcountry endorsements
While the 131000 local anglers took 3120 backcountry endorsements.

The 7000 international anglers had fishing rights for 117 days on the Greenstone.
While the 131000 local anglers had fishing rights for 63 days on the Greenstone.

Do the numbers seem fair to the local anglers. NO.
Is there a disproportionality between the numbers? Yes.
The international anglers think that individually that they are not causing an issue and they only see themselves as individuals, but the local anglers see you as a collective whole of 7000, which we have issue with.
Until the international anglers understand this point, they will never understand the issues.

We have a vested interest in the fishing in this country.
More so than you.
You can talk as much as you like about how you respect this and that but your talk is cheap.

Do the international anglers attend volunteer work with Fish & Game? No
Do they participate in Stream Restoration days? No
Do they help out at Take a Kid fishing days? No
Do they work in Volunteer Hatcheries around the country? No.

Should they pay a premium to fish this country? Yes.
Should that premium be between $500 and $1000? Yes
Should they be restricted to certain rivers? Yes
Should they be excluded from certain rivers? Yes
Should they be excluded from certain days? Yes
Should they be restricted from spending more than two days on back country rivers? Yes

If they don’t like it. Then they have 3 options.
Leave it (don’t come back to New Zealand)
Lump it (accept it and pay the premium)
or Move to New Zealand and become a local.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.

WiscoNZ
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Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:59 pm

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by WiscoNZ » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:18 am

You know you could absolutely solve the back country issue by giving priority to NZ residents before the season begins. But there are some massive issues with the stats here. You say, that it doesn't account for how many days fished. Granted, although many of those permits are limited number of days. The data should show that. But back to the back country issue. Does it show when these were booked up and how much time locals had to get the permits before they were booked up? My honest guess on this stat, locals aren't as interested in back country permits. That is just an educated guess, but it seems like there is smoke but no fire on this issue. Just use a 1 month resident only reservation time before the season.

Do most anglers attend volunteer work with fish and game? I bet not
Same answer for the next 3. It's awesome that anglers participate but saying because you do extra work to maintain your waters so you have the entitlement to exclude others is out of line. Why wouldn't you assume these anglers do these things back in their own countries and at the same time welcome you there? (and don't say some BS about not going over seas, plenty of kiwi anglers do)

What really gives you the right to preclude people from certain days and rivers? These guys are flying across the world to enjoy these waters and spending thousands of dollars. It's their dream to come fish here. oh but they show up here and you say "nope just these 3 rivers you can't go to any of the good stuff." It's the Queens waterways if I recall correctly. Should the Maoris be able to just shut any water way off? Technically they were here first. New Zealand was only founded in 1840 for God's sakes man.

I have no issue with saying charge more money, thats the way of the game. More wardens, more money for structural fixes. 17.1% of NZ's export earnings came from tourism last year. 4.6% of the countries GDP is tourism. That's INSANE. And I can tell you fishing is a huge portion of that. Recreational fishing in New Zealand accounts for a direct injection of 638 million into the GDP and an estimated 1.7 billion dollar spread to the overall economy. An estimated 8000 jobs as well. If you can't see the importance of this to the country as a whole you're just putting your head in the sand telling people go away.

No one owns the water. In principal the only argument I agree with that you're saying is charge more money. More conservation wardens and more eyes watching the waters and the problems. That way each waterway can get the treatment and love it needs. There is so much water here, plenty of rivers and lakes that can be turned into a amazing fisheries. You increase the fisheries and the quality of existing fisheries you reduce the pressure on all of them. That's just obvious. If you need to shut a river off, then you shut it off to everyone. Period. I thank you for all the volunteer work you've done and to every angler who's worked his ass of trying to help, but this does not give you the right to tell others no.



mabo
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Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:59 pm

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by mabo » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:28 pm

Over half of the backcountry endorsements went to international anglers.? as it stands now its easy to tick the box these days when buying a licence that doesn't mean they get used I've never been to a back country river in 25 years but I always have my licence endorsement just in case



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Steve
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Steve » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:21 am

There's a group down south who feel pretty strongly about this issue https://kiwianglersfirst.nz/

Below are some ideas this group has circulated, I'm just popping them up for comment, they aren't my own views;


1. The length of a NR licence be reduce to-

A , Two weeks in length giving 10 days fishing with rest days on the weekends.
B, 3 weeks in length giving 12 days fishing, with rest days on Friday Saturday and Sunday.

2. NR fishing days be allocated to rivers on a river by river basis. Each F&G region to allocate this. Including lakes. NR licence holders can only fish allocated waters.

3 Small streams to be resident only. Small streams are not able to stand additional pressure.

4. NR angling to be no more than 10% of the usage of any fishery.

5. NR licence fee to be increase considerably. Perhaps $500

6. Establish a waiting list to obtain a NR licence. Obviously we can not accommodate everybody in one season and still provide a first class experience. A waiting list is fairer than a ballot as every one gets a turn.

Other Thoughts

When allocating NR days we need to allow for 9 rod days resident days in between. Rivers need rest days - maybe 5-7 days per each angler visit.

Currently the Greenstone booking system allows for 2 anglers per beat on a continuous basis. Resident anglers are entitled to have free feeding day time fish and a true kiwi experience. . Constant pressure changes trouts feeding habits.

By having an allocation of NR days it would solve many problems. We would not need to control guides as this system would manage that. Anglers would be spread out an avoid pressure on the premier fisheries.

When a NR obtains a licence they will be able to go online and obtain his or her angling days.The cost of managing the system would be on a user pays basis,and possibly provide some income for F&G.



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TIDDLER
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by TIDDLER » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:06 pm

Hi ALL - ITS WELL KNOWN ON THIS FORUM THAT I HOLD A LIBERAL VIEW.
NEW ZEALAND AND KIWIS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN RENOWNED FOR THEIR WARMTH AND GENEROUS SPIRIT .IF WE LOSE THAT IT WILL BE TO NZ's DETRIMENT .
AS A 5th GEN NZer MY FOREFATHERS WERE HERE BEFORE THE TROUT (both lots immigrants) . IN THOSE DAYS NZ WAS ALL DIFFERENT ACCENTS . IT SEEMS NOWDAYS WE PORTRAY RESENTMENT OF SAME .
I AM SCARED THAT WE WILL BECOME A "THEM AND US" - SOCIETY .

I ENJOYED THE DAVE WITHEROW VIDEO - HOME WATERS . QUIET REFLECTION WITHOUT INTEMPERATE STICKPOINTING .

I CONSTANTLY STATE THAT I RECOGNISE THE NEED FOR GREATER GOVERNANCE ON CERTAIN WATERS . IMO SUCH GOVERNANCE SHOULD NOT BE PUNITIVE TO ANY ONE GROUP . TO BE WHIMSICAL - IF WE RESTRICT "A" WE SHOULD ALSO RESTRICT THE REST OF THE ALPHABET ACCORDINGLY .
SUCH RULES SHOULD BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF F&G - COUNCILS - MAORI AND GOVT ! NOT OF LOBBY GROUPS !

THE BELOW IS NOT FISHING BUT IS ON THE SAME THEME OF RESTRICTION . I REALISE IT MAY FURTHER ENTRENCH SOME VIEWS BUT IT DEMONSTRATES MY FEAR OF "THEM AND US" ATTITUDES .
AS A YOUNGER MAN I HIKED AND TRAMPED HUNDREDS OF KIDS AND YOUTH TO SHOW THEM THOSE "SPECIAL" PLACES . I BELIEVE THATS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE .
YES ! - WE NEED TO STOP FOULING THE ENVIRONMENT WITH RUBBISH AND TOILETING BUT TREAT EVERYONE EQUALLY .
( I carry a boom bucket in the car on all fishing trips )

https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/wanaka/ke ... tiful-bush

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE INPUT FROM OUR OVERSEAS MEMBERS . AFTERALL THEY WILL BE MOST AFFECTED BY PUNITIVE ADMINISTRATION .
Al



pomscott
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Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:17 am

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by pomscott » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:29 pm

The content of some previous posts has probably put some overseas members, me included, off commenting. Just can't be bothered when responses are aggressive and downright insulting. None of that can contribute to finding solutions.
There is some limited discussion of the subject here https://www.flyfishing.co.uk/destinatio ... glers.html . Not saying it is representative of all visitors from the UK, but maybe worth a look.



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Steve
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Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by Steve » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:33 am

In the Press today, F&G CEO comment on this issue;

https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/n ... ry-tourism



melow1
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:58 pm

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by melow1 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:48 pm

Ban the use of helicopters for a start such as is done in Tasmania.



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fraser hocks
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Location: Queenstown

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by fraser hocks » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:44 pm

Apparently that's already been considered but CAA control air traffic, and a mob like F&G have no power to get CAA to change their regulations as to who can fly where. Besides that's a minor part of a bigger issue.

The real issue comes from numbers accessing the limited resource, weather they be local or from overseas, in choppers or on foot.


Bucking trends in fly fishing since 1970!

SuperJack.10
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:06 pm
Location: Wellington

Re: the problem of overcrowded waters

Post by SuperJack.10 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:40 pm

Does anybody know if F&G has ever commissioned a proper study on this problem? Problem definition, quantification, options analysis etc? Based on some of the comments made in here there definitely seems to be a gap in good data on it. I know they probably don’t have a ton of money for things like this but it certainly seems to arouse the passions of members...



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